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old Re: Existence of evil and god

bezmolvie
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user Yes-R has written
user bezmolvie has written
I could criticize near every sentence you said there, but I'm not on the mood. Don't preach from the Bible; your repeated old sayings aren't convincing me of anything. And it doesn't sound logical, reasonable, or possible to me. Why shouldn't I say that? Because I must have 'faith'? That's just a keyword for acceptance without thought. Wisdom and logic go hand in hand, my friend. No, I do not have faith in anything. I predict probable things as I see them, and I believe in sensical (Not a word, but nonsensicalness is. Strange) morals, ideas, etc. I do not believe in fairy tales. Alright. I reject myself, apparently. I do not exist, am not living, am not arguing with delusion at this moment. Furthermore, humans:
A. Are not made in a perfect shape. It's been a long time since I've heard somone say this. Not long enough. Please explain to me what the appendix does. Or how about tonsils? Maybe the tailbone? Hmm?
B. Are an accident. An accident the Earth regrets.


no one believes in fairy tales.
first of all each human body has the power to believe and have faith into something ur a human so u have it aswell i presume. probaly since u reject urself being made by the creator u reject ur existence wich mean life comes and ends. and if so life didnt end after u died. then we got a problem cuz u rejected faith so when u die without faith u will be raised without faith being raised without faith will not allow u to see the creator nor heaven cuz u denied it and yes u know whats probaly coming. the unbelievers place.HELL


Ever heard of the golden ratio? a ratio that the creator used to make something the number 1.618 its in all creation all parts of ur body flowers animals name it . this is yet an other proof that your made and not came by an accident


*Audible Sigh*. Golden Ratio? 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144. Fibonacci numbers. And you're completely right about me not thinking I exist [/sarcasm, if you couldn't tell]. Now, you start out with the human body having the power to have faith and then... you make no point with it. I'm sure this is completely irrelevant to the point you're not making, but, still... Christianity can be easily classified as a fairy tale. There's an omnipotent god watching over you delivering justice in the end to everyone, and you never die. If someone did wrong to you you know they'll be punished, and all you have to do is • Believe • , and it's also a convenient way to scare people, via 'The unbelievers place' (Cracks me up), into doing good. Wonderful tale, isn't it?

old Re: Existence of evil and god

pupp3tStudios
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user bezmolvie has written
I could criticize near every sentence you said there, but I'm not on the mood. Don't preach from the Bible; your repeated old sayings aren't convincing me of anything. And it doesn't sound logical, reasonable, or possible to me. Why shouldn't I say that? Because I must have 'faith'? That's just a keyword for acceptance without thought. Wisdom and logic go hand in hand, my friend. No, I do not have faith in anything. I predict probable things as I see them, and I believe in sensical (Not a word, but nonsensicalness is. Strange) morals, ideas, etc. I do not believe in fairy tales. Alright. I reject myself, apparently. I do not exist, am not living, am not arguing with delusion at this moment. Furthermore, humans:
A. Are not made in a perfect shape. It's been a long time since I've heard somone say this. Not long enough. Please explain to me what the appendix does. Or how about tonsils? Maybe the tailbone? Hmm?
B. Are an accident. An accident the Earth regrets.

So we are all accidents then. Let's commit suicide now, since we are worthless and parasitic towards the Earth!!
..
Yeah, not happening, since I actually WANT to live. I'm religious, sure, but I don't want to corrupt people's minds. When someone tells me a scientific fact that can prove that something in the Bible is wrong, I don't holler out "Blasphemer!!" I just listen in consideration, and that's it. People have the free will to think as they please. If an atheist wants to be atheist, let them. If someone wishes to be religious, let them. That's all I got to say, pretty much.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

DannyDeth
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BIG BANG:
Universe has a beginning

Well, it never could have always been here, right?
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•Perhaps an end

What goes up, must come down <-> What begins, must end.
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•Space, time and matter came into existence at an instant

Same as what it says in pretty much every holy book.
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•From the explosion of a compact mass called a singularity!

The mass was actually 'dark matter', hence why this explosion/expansion created more matter.
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•All of the matter that makes up the universe is a result of that explosion.

That is impossible. Since there was only a ball of dark matter in the beginning, the energy of this explosion/expansion could not be converted into matter ( unless the energy was directed towards the core of this ball, aka an implosion. But implosions don't release as much energy as explosions/expansions, and would result as a more compact ball of dark matter or several new balls ( all of which will be smaller than the previous one ).
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•Most scientists, prefer this explanation because it explains all other observations better. Eg. Concept of back ground radiation and expansion of universe

Background radiation may also be explained by black holes ( A full negative eletromagnetic force as well as super-strong gravity ), super novas, etc, etc. These 'scientists' doubt their own studies, don't they.

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FORMATION OF A SOLAR SYSTEM:

Science explains:

•Big bang – hot fragments into space
•Fragments merged with clouds of gas called nebulae
•A cooling process began – giving rise to ball like structures – planets
•Heat that was generated due to the cooling process, accumulated in the centre – heated up the central body – became the sun.

Religion explains

Then he turned to the heaven and it was smoke. So he said to it and to the earth – come you two, willingly or unwillingly – They said – we come willingly”

Following ideas confirmed by this verse:
•Presence of smoke in the initial stages of the universe (nebulae)
•Merging of the smoke and the earth (perhaps the fragments)


Your point is made and taken, hopefully. I mean, how could 'evolutionists' say that the people from ~ 5000 to 2000 years ago, know that fish were made first, and that the land only started filling with life after that? I ask anyone who challenges creationism.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

FlooD
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user DannyDeth has written
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•From the explosion of a compact mass called a singularity!

The mass was actually 'dark matter', hence why this explosion/expansion created more matter.
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•All of the matter that makes up the universe is a result of that explosion.

That is impossible. Since there was only a ball of dark matter in the beginning, the energy of this explosion/expansion could not be converted into matter

please back up your claims about dark matter.

and no that isnt impossible. e=mc^2 => matter and energy are the same thing

2 questions for all of u:
1. what if God cloned this universe? the people in that universe would claim to have had their own big bang, when actually everything was already set in motion at the creation of the new universe.
similarly, what if some thousand years ago God created our universe so that it looked 13 billion years old?
2. do you feel something significant about humans that evolutionary theory does not explain?
edited 1×, last 07.05.11 10:16:57 am

old Re: Existence of evil and god

Yes-R
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user DannyDeth has written
Quote
BIG BANG:
Universe has a beginning

Well, it never could have always been here, right?
Quote
•Perhaps an end

What goes up, must come down <-> What begins, must end.
Quote
•Space, time and matter came into existence at an instant

Same as what it says in pretty much every holy book.
Quote
•From the explosion of a compact mass called a singularity!

The mass was actually 'dark matter', hence why this explosion/expansion created more matter.
Quote
•All of the matter that makes up the universe is a result of that explosion.

That is impossible. Since there was only a ball of dark matter in the beginning, the energy of this explosion/expansion could not be converted into matter ( unless the energy was directed towards the core of this ball, aka an implosion. But implosions don't release as much energy as explosions/expansions, and would result as a more compact ball of dark matter or several new balls ( all of which will be smaller than the previous one ).
Quote
•Most scientists, prefer this explanation because it explains all other observations better. Eg. Concept of back ground radiation and expansion of universe

Background radiation may also be explained by black holes ( A full negative eletromagnetic force as well as super-strong gravity ), super novas, etc, etc. These 'scientists' doubt their own studies, don't they.

Quote
FORMATION OF A SOLAR SYSTEM:

Science explains:

•Big bang – hot fragments into space
•Fragments merged with clouds of gas called nebulae
•A cooling process began – giving rise to ball like structures – planets
•Heat that was generated due to the cooling process, accumulated in the centre – heated up the central body – became the sun.

Religion explains

Then he turned to the heaven and it was smoke. So he said to it and to the earth – come you two, willingly or unwillingly – They said – we come willingly”

Following ideas confirmed by this verse:
•Presence of smoke in the initial stages of the universe (nebulae)
•Merging of the smoke and the earth (perhaps the fragments)


Your point is made and taken, hopefully. I mean, how could 'evolutionists' say that the people from ~ 5000 to 2000 years ago, know that fish were made first, and that the land only started filling with life after that? I ask anyone who challenges creationism.


# The creation of the Heavens and the Earth in accurate proportions; they are arranged in an accurate and systematic manner.
# The unity in the structure of the universe proves the Oneness of the Creator.
# The fact that the Heavens and the Earth were joined together as one before God separated them.
# The fact that God created every living thing from water.
# The fact that God created mountains to stabilize the Earth and that He made mountain passes for people to be able to pass through and to be guided by them.
# Emphasizing that God made the heavens as a well guarded ceiling.
# Reference to the rotation of the Earth on its axis around the sun and the alternation of the day and night. The course of the Earth, the sun and the moon through space are described as, “They float, each in an orbit”.
# Confirming that every soul shall taste death.
# Reference to the fact that man is hasty.
# Reference to the gradual reduction of the land from its outlying borders in a miraculous image.

# Reference to the Day when the heavens are rolled up like a scroll and the universe will return to its original form (joined together before it was separated into the heavens and the Earth).


Nasa... They have discovered only 8 years ago; that the Universe is flat The best way the NASA scientists could describe the Universe is "like a sheet of paper," just as god did in the holy books

old Re: Existence of evil and god

DannyDeth
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@Yes-R: That is what I have been trying to point out.

@FlooD:
Matter and energy are not the same thing, in a sense, matter and energy are different types of the same thing, however for one to be converted by the other, they need to clash with one another, otherwise no conversion can take place.

But then again I could be wrong, since the last time I read anything on the topic that was up-to-date was like 5 or 6 years ago.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

bezmolvie
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Danny, that is wrong. Energy can be converted into matter. In the very early universe, just (Fractions of Fractions of seconds) after the big bang, it was so hot (Heat = Kinetic Energy) that there was no matter, for the structure of atoms couldn't hold together. Eventually it started to cool down enough (Don't even think temperatures) so as to allow the subatomic particles would stop converting back into energy, and matter started to form. There need not be any 'clash', as you put it.

@Pupp3t, an accident is something that was not intentional. Since there was no intention anywhere when life formed and evolved, life forming is an accident. Accidents can be good. Every living thing is an accident. What I meant by 'the Earth regrets' is not to go suicide, but to change. Stop hurting, harming, or killing every non-human living thing. Stop the overpopulation, pollution, etc.

@flooD, yes, if there were a god to clone the universe, and you were somehow right about the impossible, then that scenario would hold water.

Yes-R has written
# The creation of the Heavens and the Earth in accurate proportions; they are arranged in an accurate and systematic manner.
# The unity in the structure of the universe proves the Oneness of the Creator.
# The fact that the Heavens and the Earth were joined together as one before God separated them.
# The fact that God created every living thing from water.
# The fact that God created mountains to stabilize the Earth and that He made mountain passes for people to be able to pass through and to be guided by them.
# Emphasizing that God made the heavens as a well guarded ceiling.
# Reference to the rotation of the Earth on its axis around the sun and the alternation of the day and night. The course of the Earth, the sun and the moon through space are described as, “They float, each in an orbit”.
# Confirming that every soul shall taste death.
# Reference to the fact that man is hasty.
# Reference to the gradual reduction of the land from its outlying borders in a miraculous image.

# Reference to the Day when the heavens are rolled up like a scroll and the universe will return to its original form (joined together before it was separated into the heavens and the Earth).


Why do I always laugh when I read your 'convincing arguments'? And I'm going to exclude anything that says 'Heavens' because, as I see it, unless you're referring to the sky, it doesn't exist.

# The unity in the structure of the universe proves the Oneness of the Creator.

Hmm? Unity? Structure? Where do you see any unity or structure that could not be explained by gravity? I have my own little theory. We have 1 moon, and that moon has to orbit at the right speed at the right altitude. What are the chances? Creator, right? No. When Earth were first formed, there could have been many moons. However, the ones that did not go fast enough or were too low, fell to the Earth while the others flew into space. Odds are one would get the golden ticket.

# The fact that God created mountains to stabilize the Earth and that He made mountain passes for people to be able to pass through and to be guided by them.

'The fact'. Lol. Because the Rockey Mountains, for example, have been eroded and rose up 3 times, and were doing so before humans. And I'm also sure that the Earth, would spin out of control without the mountains. And that the passes aren't caused by shape vs. water erosion.

# Emphasizing that God made the heavens as a well guarded ceiling.

A guarded ceiling? This refers to the atmosphere, does it not? Because we haven't been able to puncture this 'ceiling' because space craft don't exist.

# Reference to the rotation of the Earth on its axis around the sun and the alternation of the day and night. The course of the Earth, the sun and the moon through space are described as, “They float, each in an orbit”.

No.. just no. The rotation of Earth on its axis cannot be pulled out of that sentence. And it wasn't around the sun, the Earth was the center of the universe which everything orbited around. There is nothing about day in night in that either.

# Confirming that every soul shall taste death.

But the people have experienced that everyone dies at the point when the Bible was written. That doesn't pull a fact out of mid air that nobody could have known if there was no god. It doesn't even try to.

# Reference to the fact that man is hasty

Faster than a cheetah, we are, no?

# Reference to the Day when the heavens are rolled up like a scroll and the universe will return to its original form (joined together before it was separated into the heavens and the Earth)

A rolled up scroll is an entirely different shape than a flat sheet of paper.
http://www.memoryelixir.com/magicsale/images/scroll1.jpg
That is a rolled up scroll. It is not flat.


Also, I forget who said this, but water creatures did absolutely predate land creatures. The ocean is much more full of the requirements for the prosperity of life than land is, especially the chemicals required to start life, which logically means that life would begin in the ocean. Life evolved over millions of years to be able to live on land, and did so in many, many different ways.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

FlooD
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user DannyDeth has written
Matter and energy are not the same thing, in a sense, matter and energy are different types of the same thing, however for one to be converted by the other, they need to clash with one another, otherwise no conversion can take place.


ya but how can thing not clash with one another at the dimensions and energies of the big bang?

old Re: Existence of evil and god

Yates
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Nothing = Nothing, like in your brain.
I lol'd there, Ahh, sorry bro. You're just wondering how everything started. To be honest I don't care, someone will figure it out and then I will want to know.

old closed Re: Existence of evil and god

Lee
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A few things to observe here.

Evolution is analyzable under scientific reasoning via some quantifiable fitness function. Physical interaction are analyzable under scientific reasoning via some abstraction function that transforms tuples of, at the very elementary level, intrinsics of matter (properties such as mass, charge, position, etc) into their quantifiable counterparts, in fact, most physical models usually associated with "science" are repeated observations that, under some numerical abstraction, are quantified into either rate equations or some other form of equality.

So what is quantification and how do we rationalize axiomatic properties of the numerics system? Is it just pure observation? A large body of physical theorems are "proven" by merely observing something happening over and over again and saying that without loss of generality, the inherent behavior of all similar systems will be exactly the same. (for example, inverse square properties of the second time derivative of the position vector for particles within gravitational and electric fields) Does this sound familiar to anybody?

So here's the problem, you can't debate whether "creationism" lacks "scientific evidence" or is illogical without questioning whether science itself isn't just a little hypocritical. This is what I believe flood is trying to point out.


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But i have a curiosity, what is the famous LHC (the one that people were thing would destroy the world, lol)
What it is for?
http://www.forcajovemrn.com...ateria%20LHC%202.jpg (and why it needs to be that large? )

(Using a cyclotron as an example, while not exactly the same, the concepts are transferable)
Under constant magnetic field, and assuming low to ideal resistance, a time-dependent vector field (r) of some constant charge Q subjected to the magnetic field B, where B is perpendicular to the plane of r, creates an acceleration r''(t) such that the acceleration always points towards the "origin" (assuming we've set up the cartesian coordinate so that 0,0 is the "origin" in this case), so that we have some form of centripetal motion. Hence, the first time derivative of the particles that follow r also depends on the maximum radius.

In simple cyclotrons, the particle starts off at some radius R0 << R with an initial velocity v0 such that |v0| << |v(r = R, ...)| and a constant charge Q that is intrinsic to atomic/subatomic particles (I can't speak for elementary particles as I've never studied quantum, which may make this point moot as the LHC is designed to study both elementary and composite particles). Given ideal resistance, the particle should theoretically stay within the same radius class, so by creating potential differences within the trajectory, the particles will gain temporary acceleration opposing the centripetal force, hence increasing its radius.

Inter-particle collisions depends on the velocity of the particles, and given that the PDF for the probability space of collision depends on v, the expected value for the number of collisions increases with v and R.

I'm no expert, but since FlooD's doing Quantum/Wave eqns right now, he's much more familiar with the intrinsics, especially the differences between a synchrotron and and the elementary cyclotron I described above.


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Ever heard of the golden ratio? a ratio that the creator used to make something the number 1.618 its in all creation all parts of ur body flowers animals name it . this is yet an other proof that your made and not came by an accident

I have some problems with this assertion. Since self dependency is found within nature quite often (logistic growth is a growth model where the rate is self dependent, etc), it's not all that difficult to find recurrent models for physical processes. The gold ration just happens to be the base of the characteristic polynomial for the recurrence F(n) = F(n-1)*F(n-2) where F(0) = F(1) = 1.

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1. what if God cloned this universe? the people in that universe would claim to have had their own big bang, when actually everything was already set in motion at the creation of the new universe.
similarly, what if some thousand years ago God created our universe so that it looked 13 billion years old?
2. do you feel something significant about humans that evolutionary theory does not explain?


1. I'm still not buying that God is sentient, but if you do believe that, then it is a possibility.

2. What always bugged me about this was that while the concept is rational, the WOLG part wouldn't work unless there's some/many base cases. (TIL: Evolution is an inductive proof xD)

old Re: Existence of evil and god

FlooD
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meh evolution/bigbang/etc are just models. they dont claim to be the "truth," but they do work for the purposes of prediction and that's what's important as far as science is concerned ;p

description of LHC:
1. physicists get bored
2. physicists get shitload of money somehow
3. build this collider thingy
4. smash shit together
5. ???
6. HIGGS BOSON!!!

wtf is WOLG?? google and urbandictionary didn't find me anything

old Re: Existence of evil and god

KimKat
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I think what he ment by WOLG was "With Out Logical Grounds" and I for one agree with Lee's quote, it seems to be the most logical solution by far.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

Silent_Control
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Lee, the validity of your statements depends on the angle of view.

Einstein said:

• There is no such thing as darkness. We use this term to define the absence of light.
• There is no such thing as cold. We use this term to define the absence of heat.

Finally, there is no such thing as evil. "Evil" is just a term we use to express the absence of God in a person's heart.

When God created the Earth there was no evil. The sin of people generated the "evil" way.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

bezmolvie
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user Silent_Control has written
Lee, the validity of your statements depends on the angle of view.

Einstein said:

• There is no such thing as darkness. We use this term to define the absence of light.
• There is no such thing as cold. We use this term to define the absence of heat.

Finally, there is no such thing as evil. "Evil" is just a term we use to express the absence of God in a person's heart.

When God created the Earth there was no evil. The sin of people generated the "evil" way.

See my post, and the Original Post. They thoroughly disprove God being morally perfect, unless you have more sound and/or based reasoning.
•There is no such thing as Religion. I use this term to mean the absence of logic.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

Lee
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Lee, the validity of your statements depends on the angle of view.


I concede to that, however, that does not in of itself disprove the proposition. If we generalize the definition of god to be just some entity/force that created the universe (whether a particle or some sentient being), then the relativity of the implied god no longer matters, so long as all points of view derives from these generalized forms.

Quote
Einstein said:

There is no such thing as darkness. We use this term to define the absence of light.
There is no such thing as cold. We use this term to define the absence of heat.

Finally, there is no such thing as evil. "Evil" is just a term we use to express the absence of God in a person's heart.

When God created the Earth there was no evil. The sin of people generated the "evil" way.


I've already contended against this:

If cold is a description of the lack of heat within any physical system, kinetic energy being a property of matter derived from the net velocity of its components, do we then contend that the concept of kinetic energy is nonexistent? While neither cold nor heat are quantifiable without deriving from more atomic properties of matter, the concept of being cold does exist for all matter, even if it is vague.

Further more, the description of something being cold exists, it's just not quantifiable. By this same standard, if you assert that Evil being the complement of God, Evil is not quantifiable, hence Evil doesn't exist, then by taking the modus ponens of the contrapositive, God must be quantifiable scientifically as well, else this is a fallacious analogy used as a rhetorical device more so than evidence of the nonexistence of Evil.

Also, it's extremely unlikely that these are Einstein's words.

old Re: Existence of evil and god

Silent_Control
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Another reason: Do you guys really think that just by chance our organism works as a whole? Do you think that just by chance the energy of the stimulus is taken by the nerve cells to the spine/cerebral cortex? Do you think that just by chance the mechanisms of our entire organism are interconnected? Just by chance the Earth is inhabited by plants that produce O2 so we can breathe?

#2: I do not express the following statements in an offensive manner and I do not intend to offend anybody.

• What is the purpose of life for a christian for example?
A christian will try to achieve Salvation (Eliberation), passing in a new life after his own death.•

• What is the purpose of life for an atheist?
You simply wait for your death to come, and then you disappear? You stop existing? Then why do you need a life now if you don't believe in after-life?

old Re: Existence of evil and god

bezmolvie
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user Silent_Control has written
Another reason: Do you guys really think that just by chance our organism works as a whole? Do you think that just by chance the energy of the stimulus is taken by the nerve cells to the spine/cerebral cortex? Do you think that just by chance the mechanisms of our entire organism are interconnected? Just by chance the Earth is inhabited by plants that produce O2 so we can breathe?

#2: I do not express the following statements in an offensive manner and I do not intend to offend anybody.

• What is the purpose of life for a christian for example?
A christian will try to achieve Salvation (Eliberation), passing in a new life after his own death.•

• What is the purpose of life for an atheist?
You simply wait for your death to come, and then you disappear? You stop existing? Then why do you need a life now if you don't believe in after-life?


Sigh. Why do so many people think that evolution proposes everything came together at once? Evolution means the opposite.
Google Dictionary has written
1. Develop gradually, esp. from a simple to a more complex form

     I think of programming so much like evolution. If you look at a completed program all at once, it's so damn convoluted and complicated that it's hard to imagine someone coming up with all of it. But it doesn't work that way. The whole program and everything's interactions didn't exist at one time in the programmer's head. No, in object based programming, everything works in a 'modular' way, where the object just needs know the things it interfaces with, and do what it's supposed to, and interface with what it's supposed to. And what it interfaces with controls what it needs to, and in turn interface with its own set of objects.
     Let's say we have three things, A, B, and C. For B to do something needed every second, it needs to get something from A which manipulates a few numbers gotten both from B and C, and when it's gotten from B and C they have to do their own manipulation, and when that's done it's passed all the way back to C where it can then provide information for change in B, which then changes the information it gives when A asks for it. Confused? It's complicated. No way all that can come together. But think of it in a modular way. Think of C doing what it's supposed to, and instead of thinking about everything A and B is doing, just focus on what C is doing, and the information gotten from A and B is just data. Now think about A, and when something needs to be retrieved the things it needs to do. It becomes much simpler to think about the individual parts doing what they need to when they need to do it, and the interaction between the adjacent parts, than the whole system.

Didn't get how that bore any relation to Creationism and Evolution? In Evolution nothing happened at once. It didn't just happen to be that these different chemicals that were required for each and every animal's body were sitting right next to each other in a world that supports the animal that those chemicals created. That's not at all how evolution works. The planet's atmosphere billions of years ago was methane. Therefore the first cells used methane as energy. Very simple, replicating cells I might add. Their output was Oxygen. The later cells evolved to their surroundings, so that they could consume the oxygen that made up the air. The parts of the human body didn't 'happen to come together', they slowly were added as they became necessary and/or useful. A creature has been slowly constructed. It's not by chance, is by slow evolution. It's not a complete form of chaos that just 'happened' to all fit together, it's cause and effect.

To your second point, yes, a person stops existing. Why do we -need- a life? Simply, we don't. But we want one. Why do we need to go on a roller coaster? We don't. We want to. And we don't wait for death. We live. It may make you feel better to believe in fairy-tales, and do so if you wish. Semantics are based on things like this, and there are many different opinions, but it would be a pretty invalid argument to say "We want to live a life so we can live a life".
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